Some Brexit

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Re: Some Brexit

Post by Doctor Congo @ Thu Aug 29, 2019 10:14 pm

minimoog wrote:
Doctor Congo wrote:Tell us what the other reasons are that make you love it.


I can't speak for our Dutch friend here obviously, but I truly believe that the heart of the matter for most people is people not liking being told what to do, or how to think, especially by someone who isn't an English toff. De-regulation and an end to 'PC' is the aim. If they want to pay their workers fcuk all, or deny them rights, or tip their waste in the river, or call someone a Paki, or leer at women in the office, or treat livestock like shit, or spray pesticides everywhere, or tell foreigners to fcuk off out of it, they reckon they should be able to with no consequences.

In short, an large section of society resents becoming progressively more civilised. They would like to wind the clock back to when they didn't have to be, quite so much anyway. That way they can indulge their baser instincts to get one over on those weaker than them.

Bleating on about 'snouts in troughs' is just a smokescreen, for the blindingly obvious reason that nothing Tusk or Verhofstadt or any other EU official has ever gained personally has had even the slightest effect on individuals like Cloggy except inasmuch as the laws they have brought into effect have restricted their ability to act like cnuts.

There's more to it than that of course - not least wanting to keep Britain for the British - oh and blue passports and lightbulbs are really important. And paying and unnoticeable amount of your own money to help other countries out for the greater good. But the core grudge is about not being allowed to act like a wanker in your own country.


Yes this pretty much sums it up. I don’t believe for one second Cloggy or anyone else can come up with a cogent and tangible reason why Brexit would be great.

We’ve seen it’s not about democracy as clearly Brexiters don’t give two shits about democracy, as they suspend it to force through their agenda. It’s not about wealth creation as even Brexiters agree we will be poorer and will struggle for decades.

So I’m left with the confirmation that you’re quite right, it’s about sections of society wanting to return to a time where they could behave like a wanker without consequence.
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Re: Some Brexit

Post by deev @ Thu Aug 29, 2019 10:34 pm

It's easy to dismiss it as that. Then I go to Govanhill and see how awful it has become and the gangs of Romanians standing outside. Men wanking at school kids from inside parked cars. Rat infestations due to closes being used as bins and toilets. Stair railings chopped off and sold for scrap, rampant theft, child prostitution the list goes on.

The issue was allowing the responsible people in those areas to have their legitimate concerns dismissed and that allowed more illegitimate concerns to creep in and snowball until we have this situation.

Society and the governments didn't manage its idiots properly. They don't understand the vagaries of trade deals or much care about opportunities to work in Europe. They saw no benefits and didnt understand the ones that they did get.
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Re: Some Brexit

Post by Disastrous @ Thu Aug 29, 2019 10:45 pm

This is also true, and weirdly I kind of get that. I was in Doncaster with work recently and fcuk me, you’d vote for anything offering you something different I think.

But it’s the wealthy ‘intelligent’ folk who voted to ‘upset the lefties’ or whatever the fcuk it is that drive me mental. Moog has them to a T I reckon.
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Re: Some Brexit

Post by minimoog @ Thu Aug 29, 2019 11:07 pm

deev wrote:It's easy to dismiss it as that. Then I go to Govanhill and see how awful it has become and the gangs of Romanians standing outside. Men wanking at school kids from inside parked cars. Rat infestations due to closes being used as bins and toilets. Stair railings chopped off and sold for scrap, rampant theft, child prostitution the list goes on.

The issue was allowing the responsible people in those areas to have their legitimate concerns dismissed and that allowed more illegitimate concerns to creep in and snowball until we have this situation.

Society and the governments didn't manage its idiots properly. They don't understand the vagaries of trade deals or much care about opportunities to work in Europe. They saw no benefits and didnt understand the ones that they did get.


I'm not dismissing what you say, but

Image
Image
Image

People will always look to blame someone/something else for their shit life. People have been programmed to blame some forriner called Juncker, when a good few of the problems you mention sound like Tory austerity effects to me.

That said, I'd tentatively agree about the failure to manage 'idiots' better.
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Re: Some Brexit

Post by minimoog @ Thu Aug 29, 2019 11:15 pm

Doctor Congo wrote:It’s not about wealth creation as even Brexiters agree we will be poorer and will struggle for decades.


True most seem to acknowledge this and don't have a problem with it. Notably mainly those who can well afford to soak up a cost of living increase.

Not all are as pessimistic. Only today one PHer was confidently predicting a 10-15% decrease in grocery prices as we source cheaper goods from the RoW outside Europe. Apparently Canadian brie is a very agreeable substitute for French, as he discovered on his recent holiday in Antigua.
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Re: Some Brexit

Post by thekungfury @ Thu Aug 29, 2019 11:22 pm

Roma, not necessarily Romanian.
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Re: Some Brexit

Post by Dirk @ Thu Aug 29, 2019 11:55 pm

I'm a remainer and I could name a fair few things I don't like about the EU.

I dislike the divisive rhetoric from both sides personally
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Re: Some Brexit

Post by Doctor Congo @ Fri Aug 30, 2019 7:04 am

Dirk wrote:I'm a remainer and I could name a fair few things I don't like about the EU.

I dislike the divisive rhetoric from both sides personally


Please enlighten us
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Re: Some Brexit

Post by Clown Ice Skater #4 @ Fri Aug 30, 2019 7:57 am

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Re: Some Brexit

Post by Dirk @ Fri Aug 30, 2019 8:15 am

I do too CIS. That and some of the OTT impact assessments of devastation.

As to what I don't like about EU. Let's start with
How about the appalling restrictive trade practices with countries outside the EU where they use dominant power to bully some countries. In particular they have hampered growth in Africa hugely
Significant corruption
Vast beaurocracy
Too much power in the hands of the permanentexecutive and too little with elected representatives
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Re: Some Brexit

Post by minimoog @ Fri Aug 30, 2019 9:12 am

Dirk wrote:How about the appalling restrictive trade practices with countries outside the EU where they use dominant power to bully some countries. In particular they have hampered growth in Africa hugely
Significant corruption
Vast beaurocracy
Too much power in the hands of the permanentexecutive and too little with elected representatives


If those are concerns of yours fair enough but how many Leave voters do you think cared or even knew about any of those things? Do you think the merry folk of Sunderland for example would cite corruption and bureaucracy in Brussels as their drivers for voting to leave?

I seem to recall there was an element of 'Those Tory bastards Cameron and Osborne are saying we should remain so we'll show them hurr hurr', i.e. a desire to stick it to the politicians that had been fcuking them over for years. The irony being of course that and lies on buses and posters and socmed playing to their fears and prejudices have led them to embrace an even more sociopathic breed of Tory/right wing bastard.
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Re: Some Brexit

Post by Clown Ice Skater #4 @ Fri Aug 30, 2019 9:36 am

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Re: Some Brexit

Post by CJ+ @ Fri Aug 30, 2019 9:47 am

Dirk wrote:I do too CIS. That and some of the OTT impact assessments of devastation.
Bit early to be saying they're OTT, imho.


As to what I don't like about EU. Let's start with
How about the appalling restrictive trade practices with countries outside the EU where they use dominant power to bully some countries. In particular they have hampered growth in Africa hugely
Significant corruption
Vast beaurocracy
Too much power in the hands of the permanentexecutive and too little with elected representatives

Do you really think any of that will change outwith the EU?
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Re: Some Brexit

Post by DI Burnside @ Fri Aug 30, 2019 9:49 am

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Re: Some Brexit

Post by thekungfury @ Fri Aug 30, 2019 12:07 pm

There was and is plenty to dislike about the EU as an entity. My biggest problem with them was the political aspect, especially the “ever closer union” stance.

Things like child benefit payments given to Hungarian workers whose children had stayed home is a dumb rule. There is much more to it but ultimately they could get UK numbers of £20/wk which is the equivalent of £1m/wk in Gyor.

Ultimately I’d rather we stayed because the single market and freedom of movement benefits me personally, it benefits the nation as a whole and it also benefits future generations. It just made sense to stay.
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Re: Some Brexit

Post by thekungfury @ Fri Aug 30, 2019 12:12 pm

Just saw this on Twitter

“What will fcuk me off until the day I die about #Brexit is that 5 years ago, no-one was bothered about our EU membership. No protests against it, no strikes, no marches. I never read so much as a Facebook rant.

How depressingly easy it was to incite half a country.”
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Re: Some Brexit

Post by CJ+ @ Fri Aug 30, 2019 12:22 pm

thekungfury wrote:There was and is plenty to dislike about the EU as an entity. My biggest problem with them was the political aspect, especially the “ever closer union” stance.

Things like child benefit payments given to Hungarian workers whose children had stayed home is a dumb rule. There is much more to it but ultimately they could get UK numbers of £20/wk which is the equivalent of £1m/wk in Gyor.

Ultimately I’d rather we stayed because the single market and freedom of movement benefits me personally, it benefits the nation as a whole and it also benefits future generations. It just made sense to stay.

Most of the stupid shit about the EU/UK relationship was self-inflicted. We could have imposed much stricter rules on benefits etc, but chose not to.

ETA: that doesn't bode well for our decision-making outside the EU, does it?
Last edited by CJ+ on Fri Aug 30, 2019 12:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Some Brexit

Post by minimoog @ Fri Aug 30, 2019 1:55 pm

thekungfury wrote:Just saw this on Twitter

“What will fcuk me off until the day I die about #Brexit is that 5 years ago, no-one was bothered about our EU membership. No protests against it, no strikes, no marches. I never read so much as a Facebook rant.

How depressingly easy it was to incite half a country.”


Exactly. However one thing that changed was the Syrian refugee crisis which brought the fear of unfettered immigration to the fore. Merkel has a lot to answer for here, but we were in no danger of taking the German or Swedish open arms path. But it was enough to play on us having to accept a quota of refugees to be imposed by the EU whether we liked it or not. That and Farage standing in front of his fcuking poster was all it took to make the EU into a massive bogeyman.
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Re: Some Brexit

Post by thekungfury @ Fri Aug 30, 2019 2:18 pm

Image

Barely bubbling along at 5% for years then suddenly the no.1 most important thing.

https://ftalphaville.ft.com/2018/12/11/ ... ed-to-see/
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Re: Some Brexit

Post by CJ+ @ Fri Aug 30, 2019 2:23 pm

Would I be wildly off-base to suggest that 2016 also represents the time at which Cambridge Analytica started getting involved with bending our collective minds?
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Re: Some Brexit

Post by Clown Ice Skater #4 @ Fri Aug 30, 2019 2:23 pm

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Re: Some Brexit

Post by minimoog @ Fri Aug 30, 2019 3:23 pm

CJ+ wrote:Would I be wildly off-base to suggest that 2016 also represents the time at which Cambridge Analytica started getting involved with bending our collective minds?


Speaking of CA...

ca.JPG
ca.JPG (27.46 KiB) Viewed 206 times
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Re: Some Brexit

Post by Deuteronomy @ Fri Aug 30, 2019 3:26 pm

minimoog wrote:
CJ+ wrote:Would I be wildly off-base to suggest that 2016 also represents the time at which Cambridge Analytica started getting involved with bending our collective minds?


Speaking of CA...

ca.JPG


Just when you think they can't add to the corrupt, self-serving nature of the whole sordid affair...
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Re: Some Brexit

Post by Turntable @ Fri Aug 30, 2019 3:51 pm

minimoog wrote:
thekungfury wrote:Just saw this on Twitter

“What will fcuk me off until the day I die about #Brexit is that 5 years ago, no-one was bothered about our EU membership. No protests against it, no strikes, no marches. I never read so much as a Facebook rant.

How depressingly easy it was to incite half a country.”


Exactly. However one thing that changed was the Syrian refugee crisis which brought the fear of unfettered immigration to the fore. Merkel has a lot to answer for here, but we were in no danger of taking the German or Swedish open arms path. But it was enough to play on us having to accept a quota of refugees to be imposed by the EU whether we liked it or not. That and Farage standing in front of his fcuking poster was all it took to make the EU into a massive bogeyman.


Reading the posts here reminds me of one of the things I hate so much about this.
The whole issue is incredibly complex involving hundreds of factors that interplay, whilst politicians are pretending its a black and white issue and people actually believe it
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Re: Some Brexit

Post by deev @ Fri Aug 30, 2019 5:23 pm

thekungfury wrote:Roma, not necessarily Romanian.

This is true.
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Re: Some Brexit

Post by Dirk @ Tue Sep 03, 2019 4:47 pm

So it seems parliament have 3 possible outcomes:

1) Vote against no-deal, but not for a GE - in which case Boris will go to EU and ask (unconvincingly) for an extension. EU have previously said they would only grant an extension if there is a defined plan (e.g. referendum) so presumably they will say fcuk off and we will leave with no-deal

2) Vote against no-deal and for a GE. In which it looks like Boris would get a (narrow) mandate (partly because of the appalling alternatives) and we will leave with no deal

3) Don't vote against no-deal and leave Boris to negotiate. Which is likely to result in a no-deal unless Boris can negotiate a better deal

So parliament not voting against no-deal and Boris negotiating a better deal is the best chance we have to avoid a no-deal Brexit? Hmmm
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Re: Some Brexit

Post by Deuteronomy @ Tue Sep 03, 2019 4:58 pm

I understand that the EU might just leave it open ended to mitigate the first option - I don't have the details on this though.

I don't think it's as bleak as all that though Dirk, a lib/lab coalition might well be enough to convince people to vote for them (the best option would be for Corbyn to signal that he'll stand down after the GE, not enough time for a leadership contest, or just fcuk off and an interim bod steer the ship in the short term)

Staggering that he's so bad that despite the shit-show of the current government people might still prefer BJ.
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Re: Some Brexit

Post by Dirk @ Tue Sep 03, 2019 6:02 pm

I don't think Lab/LD have much of a chance (even ignoring the fact that LD have said no chance to a coalition with either of the 2 big parties)

See if you can pick the point on this graph where Boris became leader/PM

Image
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Re: Some Brexit

Post by thekungfury @ Tue Sep 03, 2019 6:03 pm

The polls, for what they're worth, all have Tory 30-35% and Labour 20-25%. They also have Brexit Party hovering around 10-15%. Don't rule out Boris and Farage agreeing a pact to sway voters in return for No Deal Granite Brexit.

https://twitter.com/britainelects

I hate Corbyn so much for being such a stubborn unelectable cnut. I hold him as responsible as pretty much anyone for the mess we're in.
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Re: Some Brexit

Post by CJ+ @ Tue Sep 03, 2019 6:08 pm

What. A. fcuking. Mess.

That is all I have to say on the matter.
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