Some Brexit

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Re: Some Brexit

Post by stuart @ Thu Sep 26, 2019 10:47 am

I like how up until a few days ago no one had ever heard of prorogration, but now everyone is an expert and has their own opinion of it its legal or not, or even a good / bad idea.

Why do I never hear:

"What do you think of prorogration?"
"Dunno, I'm not an expert or a lawyer, just heard the term the other day and any opinion I would have on it would just be guessing and pointless."
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Re: Some Brexit

Post by Careless Whisperer @ Thu Sep 26, 2019 11:02 am

stuart wrote:I like how up until a few days ago no one had ever heard of prorogration, but now everyone is an expert and has their own opinion of it its legal or not, or even a good / bad idea.

Why do I never hear:

"What do you think of prorogration?"
"Dunno, I'm not an expert or a lawyer, just heard the term the other day and any opinion I would have on it would just be guessing and pointless."


That's the result of employing a referendum. If 'The People' have been asked to make a decision on something, then it's only natural that they/we expect to understand what that decision involves.

If Wayne and Sharon understood enough about Europe to choose whether to stay or leave, then they must understand all the intricacies of legal consequence, to have made an informed decision...
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Re: Some Brexit

Post by Strawman @ Tue Oct 01, 2019 11:30 am

The Tories genius plan for avoided a hard border in Ireland, two hard borders seperated by a 20 mile deep 'buffer zone'

Image

ETA- over over 625,000 people live in the red zone
Last edited by Strawman on Tue Oct 01, 2019 11:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Some Brexit

Post by Dirk @ Tue Oct 01, 2019 11:39 am

Isn't the point that people will not be stopped from crossing the border so there is no hard border in that sense. But goods will have to choose a centre to go to.

Whereas if we leave without a deal it will be a completely hard border?

ETA
if the proposal avoids a hard Brexit then whilst I would prefer to Reman, I would choose this rather then a no-deal Brexit
Last edited by Dirk on Tue Oct 01, 2019 11:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Some Brexit

Post by Dirk @ Tue Oct 01, 2019 11:45 am

But in fact haven't you repeated what RTE have said the proposals will be, which the govt have said is not the case?
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Re: Some Brexit

Post by Strawman @ Tue Oct 01, 2019 11:46 am

Dirk wrote:Isn't the point that people will not be stopped from crossing the border so there is no hard border in that sense. But goods will have to choose a centre to go to.

Whereas if we leave without a deal it will be a completely hard border?

ETA
if the proposal avoids a hard Brexit then whilst I would prefer to Reman, I would choose this rather then a no-deal Brexit


You can't have free movement of people if the UK leaves the single market, there is free movement of people across the Swiss border as they are part of single market but no the customs union hence goods get routed to a customs control checkpoint there. The whole proposal is nonsense, as is hard Brexit.
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Re: Some Brexit

Post by Dirk @ Tue Oct 01, 2019 3:00 pm

Fine SM, but since it appears we are going to leave (because the people) I hope the EU are being more constructive than just saying every idea is ridiculous, because if they don't we will leave with a hard Brexit soon and I think we are all agreed that would be the worst option.

Just like it would be nice if parliament were a little more helpful than voting down every fcuking option
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Re: Some Brexit

Post by Strawman @ Tue Oct 01, 2019 3:07 pm

Dirk wrote:Just like it would be nice if parliament were a little more helpful than voting down every fcuking option


Well yes, but May's deal could have passed if the ERG group of tory Mp's had supported it. Given the Tories didn't want to stay in the single market or customs union May's deal was the best that was on offer. I don't think no deal is inevitable, it is in fact against UK law now for the government to pursue it. Revoke article 50 and remain are far easier to achieve.
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Re: Some Brexit

Post by Dirk @ Tue Oct 01, 2019 3:12 pm

Strawman wrote:
Dirk wrote:Just like it would be nice if parliament were a little more helpful than voting down every fcuking option


Well yes, but May's deal could have passed if the ERG group of tory Mp's had supported it. Given the Tories didn't want to stay in the single market or customs union May's deal was the best that was on offer. I don't think no deal is inevitable, it is in fact against UK law now for the government to pursue it. Revoke article 50 and remain are far easier to achieve.

It isn't against UK law to pursue it. Its law that they have to ask for an extension.

I agree to some extent that May's deal should have passed. But the whole point of the backstop was that it only came into play if another deal could not be reached on the Irish border issue. We've had a long time to find an alternative since then, and the only real proposal i have heard of is from Boris' lot (which is not what you said it was). So if it is that hard to agree an alternative, they did have a point it would have effectively bound us to stay in
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Re: Some Brexit

Post by Strawman @ Tue Oct 01, 2019 3:23 pm

Dirk wrote: We've had a long time to find an alternative since then, and the only real proposal i have heard of is from Boris' lot (which is not what you said it was).

Well he won't revel what it is, so it's obviously something equally laughably impossible; unicorns dancing on rainbows across the border, to stop criminals smuggling goods across the border?
The original EU proposal was N.Ire would stay in the single market, the minority party in the region, the DUP, didn't like that, so the UK proposal was to extend the zone across the UK.
If the tories want a new arrangement it is up to them to come up with new solutions, the EU has negotiated it's deal in good faith, the May deal which respects the Good Friday agreement. The wriggle room that respects it and WTO rules isn't as much as liar Boris would have you believe.
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Re: Some Brexit

Post by Dirk @ Wed Oct 02, 2019 3:21 pm

From the brief outline on the news, it seems like Johnson's proposal is likely to be more workable than might be expected, and possibly more acceptable to the EU than DUP.

The plan would see Northern Ireland essentially stay in the European single market for goods through the creation of a "all-island regulatory zone".


The NI assembly then gets the opportunity to vote every 4 years if they want to come out.

Which essentially means a border in the Irish sea - which will be unpopular with some on the right and in DUP

From EU POV the only downside is the possibility for NI to leave in 4 years. But if its that or them leaving now?
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Re: Some Brexit

Post by Tokyo Sexwale @ Wed Oct 02, 2019 3:28 pm

stuart wrote:I like how up until a few days ago no one had ever heard of prorogration, but now everyone is an expert and has their own opinion of it its legal or not, or even a good / bad idea.

Why do I never hear:

"What do you think of prorogration?"
"Dunno, I'm not an expert or a lawyer, just heard the term the other day and any opinion I would have on it would just be guessing and pointless."

This is true of most aspects of Brexit IME.
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Re: Some Brexit

Post by Dirk @ Wed Oct 02, 2019 4:09 pm

Tokyo Sexwale wrote:
stuart wrote:I like how up until a few days ago no one had ever heard of prorogration, but now everyone is an expert and has their own opinion of it its legal or not, or even a good / bad idea.

Why do I never hear:

"What do you think of prorogration?"
"Dunno, I'm not an expert or a lawyer, just heard the term the other day and any opinion I would have on it would just be guessing and pointless."

This is true of most aspects of Brexit IME.

True of most subjects TBH.

On the other hand Brexit is an aspect that effects us all, and on which we have had a choice in the past and might yet get one again.
So following the principles of the "wisdom of Crowds" such wisdom only applies when there is no segregation of competing opinions and we all expose ourselves to as many opinions as possible (preferably without shouting them down with insults if we happen to disagree). That doesn't happen if everyone just says " I don't know"

So let us have polite debate about beliefs and why without decrying everyone who disagrees with as as stupid, racists, elitists etc.
After all, most of us will still have to live on the same island afterwards, whatever happens.
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Re: Some Brexit

Post by Dirk @ Wed Oct 02, 2019 4:10 pm

Looking past the headlines btw I think the EU will reject it. But I'm still surprised because it looks like DUP are happy - presumably they think they could vote it out in 4 years time
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Re: Some Brexit

Post by thekungfury @ Wed Oct 02, 2019 4:17 pm

Strawman wrote:The Tories genius plan for avoided a hard border in Ireland, two hard borders seperated by a 20 mile deep 'buffer zone'

Image

ETA- over over 625,000 people live in the red zone

Looks like Len has been working out in the shed
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Re: Some Brexit

Post by tanglerat @ Wed Oct 02, 2019 4:37 pm

lol that's going right through the middle of Letterkenny.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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Re: Some Brexit

Post by Clown Ice Skater #4 @ Wed Oct 02, 2019 7:03 pm

This post intentionally left blank.
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Re: Some Brexit

Post by Greg66 @ Wed Oct 02, 2019 8:09 pm

Have we got to the point yet where reasonable, sensible and impartial people push their chairs back from the table and exclaim “Oh my fcuking God! Boris really has been playing 4D chess all along! He’s a fcuking genius, I tell you!”?
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Re: Some Brexit

Post by desertweasel @ Wed Oct 02, 2019 8:18 pm

I think even if the tech was real and imminent as Johnson insists the effective DUP veto will kill this, I may be misunderstanding it but doesn't this let the DUP kill the good Friday agreement by introducing a hard border after a vote in 1 year or 5 years? All they have to do is kill the setup and the default is a hard border, something many of them have been insisting on.
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Re: Some Brexit

Post by Strawman @ Wed Oct 02, 2019 8:34 pm

In the words of Robert de Niro "fcuk em" they are a minority party in Northern Ireland, overall N.I. voted remain and welcome to the break up of the union.
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Re: Some Brexit

Post by Strawman @ Wed Oct 02, 2019 8:37 pm

Greg66 wrote:Have we got to the point yet where reasonable, sensible and impartial people push their chairs back from the table and exclaim “Oh my fcuking God! Boris really has been playing 4D chess all along! He’s a fcuking genius, I tell you!”?

No he is a bumbling shambolic excuse of unelected prime minister, destined to be the shortest serving prime minister in the history of the UK.
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Re: Some Brexit

Post by Strawman @ Wed Oct 02, 2019 8:39 pm

Clown Ice Skater #4 wrote:Oh my god! They killed Letterkenny!

Good
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Re: Some Brexit

Post by thekungfury @ Wed Oct 02, 2019 8:40 pm

You know these “get ready for Brexit” adverts? Has anybody done anything on a personal level? I haven’t at all.

For business we’re waiting to see what the clusterfcuk will be. If we leave this month every chemical crossing the borders will need to be logged and registered on a government IT system which doesn’t exist yet. It’s going to be horrible.
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Re: Some Brexit

Post by S1K @ Wed Oct 02, 2019 8:48 pm

The matrix sign I drove past on the M4 motorway this evening was warning about possible paperwork changes for EU freight.
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Re: Some Brexit

Post by Clown Ice Skater #4 @ Wed Oct 02, 2019 8:51 pm

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Re: Some Brexit

Post by desertweasel @ Wed Oct 02, 2019 9:01 pm

thekungfury wrote:You know these “get ready for Brexit” adverts? Has anybody done anything on a personal level? I haven’t at all.


Unfortunately, we have had to do a bunch and much more remains up in the air, we have no idea where we will be in a couple of years time depending on healthcare and pound value.
It has been horrendous, all the reassurances of the embassy come to nothing if there is no reciprocation by the UK and it is becoming obvious that they are going full steam ahead with the hostile environment so I expect the Portuguese to do the something pretty similar, unfortunately, they do not need us more than we need them..
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Re: Some Brexit

Post by Strawman @ Wed Oct 02, 2019 9:04 pm

Jacob Rees Mogg is the bellend's bellend, with his ill fitting double breasted suit
Original video page: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Lf76mW0AWI

as a student at Oxford (reportedly) when he went along for a curry with his mates he ordered an omlete how sad/deeply revleving of his racist vews is that?
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Re: Some Brexit

Post by Tokyo Sexwale @ Wed Oct 02, 2019 9:34 pm

thekungfury wrote:You know these “get ready for Brexit” adverts? Has anybody done anything on a personal level? I haven’t at all.

For business we’re waiting to see what the clusterfcuk will be. If we leave this month every chemical crossing the borders will need to be logged and registered on a government IT system which doesn’t exist yet. It’s going to be horrible.

Kent is predicted to be a massive car park and the disaster planning around that is huge.
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Re: Some Brexit

Post by Dirk @ Wed Oct 02, 2019 9:53 pm

desertweasel wrote:I think even if the tech was real and imminent as Johnson insists the effective DUP veto will kill this, I may be misunderstanding it but doesn't this let the DUP kill the good Friday agreement by introducing a hard border after a vote in 1 year or 5 years? All they have to do is kill the setup and the default is a hard border, something many of them have been insisting on.

No, because all the unionists combined in NI assembly let alone the DUP do not have the seats to vote it out. Nationalists and indies to vote to stay in. I doubt that will change
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Re: Some Brexit

Post by desertweasel @ Wed Oct 02, 2019 10:30 pm

Dirk wrote:
desertweasel wrote:I think even if the tech was real and imminent as Johnson insists the effective DUP veto will kill this, I may be misunderstanding it but doesn't this let the DUP kill the good Friday agreement by introducing a hard border after a vote in 1 year or 5 years? All they have to do is kill the setup and the default is a hard border, something many of them have been insisting on.

No, because all the unionists combined in NI assembly let alone the DUP do not have the seats to vote it out. Nationalists and indies to vote to stay in. I doubt that will change


I do wonder why Foster is so happy with it though.
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